Keep the Ribbon, or lose it?

[-default]

I'm considering removing the ribbon bar.  This is your chance as a beta tester to steer the direction the product is taking. 

Instead there will be a two or three tool bars for view, curve, and mask related commands.  You will have the ability (as you do now) to add or remove commands from tool bars, hide tool bars, and create new tool bars, but the ribbon will simply be gone.

[derekfountain]

I'm considering removing the ribbon bar.

When I first saw the ribbon, I examined it closely, concluded it was a waste of space, and switched it off. Almost immediately I realised it was an instrumental part of the new product and therefore had to be taken seriously, so I turned it back on again (after asking how).

I've now processed about 2 dozen photos with CM3 and the ribbon turned on, and can honestly say I don't think I've used the ribbon buttons more than 3 times. Then again, I never change it from the Home view, so I might be missing something.

The reason is that everything I need can be accessed via the curves pane and the context menus. The attached screenshot shows how I'm currently using the program: no ribbon, a menu above the curves for the functions I require most, and a menu above the image which is only actually there because there doesn't seem to be any other way to have a "Show pins" button on screen near the image which is where I'm used to having it.

Unfortunately I don't think the decision about the ribbon's fate is as simple as the above suggests it might be. One thing the ribbon does do is put all the features of the program in front of the user. That's got value, especially for introducing the new features to experienced users. I still don't know what masks or zebra mode are for, for instance, but I know they're there. Still, as long as they appear on a menu somewhere I'd find them.

On the whole I'd opt for removing the ribbon and ensuring the default toolbars and menus carry access to all features. But it's a tricky one. Since it's easy to hide, there's really not much harm in keeping it.

[ggroess]

I guess I come at this from the CM Class aspect. 

If I was going to teach someone new about the product... I'd want this on by default and I'd make sure the users could hide it.  To shut it down just because we as beta testers already know how to use the program ignores one of the primary reasons for even having it...the new users.

Many questions come about in the class because people do not know where something is, or even how to get to the tools menus. 

I'd rather teach them to turn it off than have to walk them through all the old hoops and steps to get tot he tools.  Many times the new users have complained "Well, If I'd have just known about that feature...."  I think the ribbon gives them a leg up on getting to know the program...

Lastly,  Just as Derek has turned his off, I'm leaving mine on.  I want to know about the Zebra mode, and mask tools...this is a reminder for me to investigate with Mike what the intent and use of these tools was and is expectected to be.  I think the ability to turn it off is the key...

We each will configure the program to meet our needs.  I would see it as selfish of us to deny the new users the same luxury.
Greg

[derekfountain]

Lastly,  Just as Derek has turned his off, I'm leaving mine on.

And there is the alternative opinion, perfectly well reasoned and thoroughly sensible. (Although I'm not sure about Greg's cat skinning analogy in the other thread. :)) Nothing like people making it easy for you, eh Mike? :)

A question for Greg, though: if all the duplicated and superfluous items are removed from the ribbon, how much is left?

Plenty of things in CM really belong on context menus. Some other things should definitely be directly on the curve or image panes. The remainder should be on the ribbon, or if there isn't enough to justify the ribbon, on configurable toolbars.

The CM beta tester sample size is currently about 3 people, which clearly isn't enough to formulate an measured response to. Hopefully this will increase a bit now the weekend is here. I suspect the right thing to do for now is to keep the ribbon and to keep pruning from it unnecessary things. When there's vague agreement that everything left on it is justifiable for at least one group of user, the final decision can be taken as to whether it's useful, confusing, a waste of space, better done with toolbars, or whatever.

[ggroess]

Great discussion BTW..Thanks for taking it in the spirit it was intended for...

Space...well it certainly is one of the luxuries of all the real estate the new interface creates...

I think you have touched on some great design questions, ultimately I hope the goal is to make the interface as user friendly as possible and yet powerfull.  I agree that in the current state...it needs to be improved...there are items that certainly could hit the "ribbon" cutting room floor.  But there are things that could easily be argued for. 

A suggestion to Mike would be a mock up of 1 or 2 configurations that we could argue over for a few years... and see if he has had enough suggestions to make sense of it...I know that some of the code writing behind the buttons is static but I bet some of the changes are not easily un-done...

I guess I'd still make a case for the extras on the ribbon.. favoring access over real estate. It really is going to be a common interface in a few years as more people convert to Office 2007 and other apps start using the ribbon, just as the current windows GUI is today to most windows based programs.

[derekfountain]

I don't actually object to the ribbon. It's very easy to switch off, so anyone who doesn't like it can remove it very quickly. The toolbars are configurable so experienced users can set those up just as they like, like I have done.

My only problems with the ribbon are it's big (taking up my screen real estate), it's cluttered with lots of duplicated functionality, and it looks really intimidating. I think the first two points might put experienced users off of it (like me!) and the latter point makes it of limited use to new users. Not many winners.

If it can be made smaller and simpler, with only the features it really needs, I'm happy to agree it should be the default interface for those who don't have enough knowledge to tune the toolbars to their needs. In fact, I'm now bordering on being convinced it should stay! I'm nothing if not flexible. :)

Incidentally, I've been off work this week, hence my copious input. Mike's timing was excellent in that respect. :) I start a new job on Monday, at which point my input to the discussion will drop off dramatically I'm afraid. I'm still hoping to investigate a few of the new features of CM3 over the weekend though.

[ggroess]

best of luck and adventure in your new job...

your suggestions as always are well thought out..I hope you can continue to devote time to the beta..I know I am trying but I have the really bad bug where If I click OK the whole thing crashes...

Kind of puts a crimp in the process....
Greg

[-default]

Yes, it does put a crimpin things! 

I'm currently downloading my newly purchased copy of Elements 6.  As soon as I have it running I'm hoping I can reproduce the problem.

[ggroess]

Me too otherwise I look the fool...

LOL

[mikemeister_admin]

Give me a minute, give me a minute. I am completely new to the program, and am just figuring out what it can do. The crashes did get in the way of that originally, but I should be able to put some concerted time into learning the program this weekend. Interestingly enough, I really like the ribbon. I'm usually annoyed by clutter, but it doesn't feel cluttered to me. I don't know yet about the redundancy of some of the tools. And I am really liking the ability to see all the channels/masks, though I've not tapped their potential. (I've wanted to be able to compare channels since I read the first chapter of PP5).
But I need more time before I can give a well reasoned opinion. :)